Not a few heretics have, of course, denied the fundamentals of the faith once delivered to the saints, such as Christ’s incarnation, virgin birth, blood atonement on the cross, bodily resurrection, and literal return to earth to reign. These people, who have often gained a cult following, have actually believed they’ve annulled around two thousand years of Christian scholarship – yes, two thousand years of Christian scholarship and research of the scriptures and relevant material in colleges and monasteries, with access to vast libraries of the most comprehensive data – and that they’ve done so by simply getting some sort of special insight or inspiration, and/or by sitting down and reading a few books or “gold plates” on an issue, or just by simply making the whole thing up with a little help from others with a fertile imagination.
The doctrine of an imminent resurrection or “rapture” (i.e., instantaneous catching up together) of the church, the body of Christ, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR, as distinct from the saints’ return TO THE EARTH with the Lord about seven years later to reign, is not something new. Even though it could be argued that it has only been made freely available to the general public as a doctrine relatively recently by godly and learned men like John Nelson Darby, who got the ceiling lifted on their understanding of the scriptures after they left the mainstream parties or factions in Christendom and came under Christ as their head and began to meet again like the apostles and early Christians did in the first century.
In fact God’s revelation of the truth of his word has always been progressive since the fall of man – it was, for example, first progressively the law, the prophets, and the writings of the Old Testament and then progressively the writings and epistles that were put together to make up the New; and the best understanding of scripture has not been gained by taking a retrospective look at Christianity, as the Orthodox and Roman Catholic factions in Christendom would have us believe; because it’s plain that the so-called Church Fathers had only a limited understanding and ‘dim candlelight to work by’ compared to what we now have in the way of written material and research aids to throw light on an issue.
Having said that, the doctrine of an imminent resurrection or rapture of the church, the body of Christ, in the air, and about seven years prior to Christ’s return to the earth to reign is not necessarily incompatible with the writings of the so-called Church Fathers; which is not at all surprising, because it’s alluded to by Jesus Christ in the gospels and a plain teaching of the apostles in the epistles, and in fact found throughout God-inspired scripture from Genesis to the Revelation.
For way back in the biblical book of Genesis, Moses wrote of the patriarch Enoch who “walked with God and was translated that he should not see death”, when God “took him”, just prior to the flood in the days of Noah (Gen. 5.22-24; Heb. 11.5).
The translation of Enoch before the global chaos of the flood in the days of Noah was the archetype of the imminent resurrection or rapture of the church, the body of Christ, before what scripture calls the “time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30.7) or “great tribulation”; and it’s alluded to by Jesus Christ who knew the Old Testament prefigured coming events and said: “For in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark … Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore …” (Matt.24.37-41).
This prophecy in Matthew’s gospel was obviously at least partially fulfilled at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when the Romans took some of the inhabitants of Judaea captive and left some behind in the land; but it also plainly points to events yet to come during a greater and global upheaval just prior to what Christ said would be “the coming of the Son of man”.
Beam Me Up Scotty - There's No Intelligent Life Here - They've Left Off Jesus For The Jews' Antichrist
In fact every prophecy of scripture has, first, a near or immediate fulfilment and then at least one and usually two other fulfilments that are often centuries and even millenniums away.
For example, you get the first prophecy of scripture – “I [God] will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; and it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (Gen. 3.15), referring first to Eve’s son Seth as the head of a line that would oppose and morally dominate her other son Cain’s line and ultimately produce Christ who would bruise the serpent Satan’s head on the cross by dying for and redeeming fallen humanity – “now is the prince of darkness cast out”.
Another is Isaiah’s prophecy, that “a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shalt call his name Immanuel”, which refers, first, to a child to be born shortly before the land that king Ahaz abhorred was “forsaken of both her kings”, and also, of course, to Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, and given the name Immanuel or “God with us” (Isa. 7.10-16; Matt. 1. 22, 23).
The Old Testament also mentions the catching away of the prophet Elijah in a whirlwind into heaven in a chariot of fire drawn by horses of fire (2Kgs.2. 11). But the catching away of Elijah in a chariot was more a prototype of what happened to the evangelist Philip in the New Testament, than a prefigurement of the resurrection or rapture of the church; but it does show the power of the Lord to translate people or shift them supernormally from one place to another. For a chariot is mentioned in the episode of the Spirit catching away Philip, and “the eunuch saw him no more … But Philip was found at Azotus, and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea” (Acts 8. 38-40).
In the New Testament, the apostle Paul plainly states the doctrine of an imminent resurrection or rapture of the church, the body of Christ, where he says: “Behold I shew you a mystery: we [i.e., the church, the body of Christ,] shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible, and we [i.e., the dead and those yet alive on earth in Christ] shall be changed. For this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (I Cor. 15. 51-58).
Indeed Paul by the word of the Lord says: “we [i.e., true Christians of the body of Christ] which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord [i.e., IN THE AIR, as distinct from his coming ONTO THE EARTH after great tribulation] shall not prevent [i.e., go before or precede] them which are asleep [i.e., dead in Christ]. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4.15-18).
Those who have contracted the Denial Syndrome and denied the resurrection or rapture or the church, have often been inspired by unlearned, irrational, and often hysterical bloggers who actually think the whole concept of the return of Jesus Christ either before or after global chaos is a blatant lie concocted by Jews and the Illuminati to deceive millions into living wantonly and without care for the planet and the moral breakdown, because all things will ostensibly be sorted by a disappearing act, but really so as to enslave and destroy them under a Jew World Order in a New Age.
To quote one such confused and hysterical individual:
The ‘belief’ was injected into our Christian minds as babes that “In the end times Jesus will return to reign on earth for a thousand years of PEACE” (after which, Satan will once again be released, which makes NO sense at all anyway).
To realize that this story runs on a perfectly parallel path with the Talmudic political program of World Dominion — under the rule of MAN, who refers to himself as “the chosen”; to realize that the story is one and the same is startling to say the least.
That parallel path is not intended to clash, conflict, or cross at some junction, but to so slowly and subtly merge together that we will simply open our eyes one day to the awareness that we are on the same path with two separate destinations in mind.
2,300 years ago, Plato called it ‘The Third Way’. Today, the Democrats call it ‘The Third Way’; the Republicans call it ‘Compassionate Conservatism’. A merging of what has been presented as diametrically opposed concepts.
Jews have been awaiting their messiah for 3,000 years; while we Christians have been awaiting the return of our Messiah for 2,000… and the same small group made up the same story for all of us. Jesus called that group Pharisees, including with the Pharisees as perpetrators of the lie… the Scribes. Today, we call them lawyers.
So hundreds of millions of mind-manipulated people excitedly cry,
“Bring it on! Bring it on! Bring on the chaos, perversion, death and destruction! It’s in the book! Bring on the vaccines that are killing our children! Bring on the chem-trails leaving their trails of death and disease! Bring on the New World Order under control of the International Zionist Jews who control their useful idiots at the United Nations. It’s God’s plan! Bring on the Terminator Seed, Bovine Growth Hormone, irradiated food, genetically engineered non-food! Our messiah is coming!”
In truth, it is a whopper of a lie. It is a deadly lie, and if we don’t wake up to it – Jew and Christian alike – we’ll all end up slaves in a world that, I believe, will be more evil than we could bear to consider… or be included in their plans for depopulation.”
Indeed it seems the very people who deny the imminent resurrection or rapture of the church are the ones who lack real faith in the word of God, and hence have the greatest fear that they’ll have to face the biblical European political beast and the horror of the guillotine – they’re so fearful that they want plenty of company during the great tribulation, so they try to con Christians of the church, the body of Christ, into thinking they won’t get raptured but will go through it with them.
Alternatively, members of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic factions in Christendom will often subtly support, but not often dare to openly advocate denial of the rapture, because they see it as compatible with their thesis that ‘the Church’ will ultimately defeat the inroads of Satan and the Jews as his chief acolytes, and hence not need to be taken off the planet just prior to the last great social cataclysm, and will in fact miraculously convert the world to Christ, and set up a pope or patriarch of one or other of their factions or denominations at the helm of all things in a brave new age.
Scripture actually presents a totally different scenario and makes it plain that Christendom and her witness will only deteriorate as her dispensation draws to a close, and that carnal, sectarian factions in Christendom like the so-called Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches will never again have the power they had in the medieval era. Indeed the Bible says: “in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God: having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof”; and it adds that “evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived” – “giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils” (1 Tim.4.1-3; 2 Tim. 3.1-13).
Contrary to popular opinion among Christians today, there is no revival of the witness of Christendom promised in scripture at end of the church dispensation just prior to the rapture, only an increase in evil and apostasy. Indeed all indications are that the rapture will take place primarily because God has decided to ‘pull the plug’ on the witness of Christendom because the churches are lukewarm and hence nauseous to Christ who will spew the hypocrites or merely nominal Christians in them out of his mouth, as not ever acceptable to him as his witness, and into “great tribulation”.
Moreover it’s evident that the time of the resurrection or rapture of the church is specifically seven years before the return of the Lord to the earth with the saints to reign, or before the seventieth “week” (septenary of years) of Daniel’s prophecy begins (Dan. 9. 24-27); because that “week” is a new dispensation and characteristically the “time of Jacob’s trouble” or when God takes up with a remnant of national Israel as his witness, after the church, the body of Christ, has left the scene.
An imminent resurrection or rapture of the church, the body of Christ, BEFORE God takes up with the nation of Israel as his witness again in Daniel’s yet to be fulfilled “seventieth week” and prior to the time of Jacob’s trouble” is endorsed by the biblical book of the Revelation, where the angel says to the apostle John, after the discourse on the seven churches and just prior to the judgments of God being poured out, “come up hither” (Rev. 4.1); and as a counterpart of other verses of scripture that speak of the saints being “kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth”, and “delivered from the wrath to come” (Rev. 3. 10; 1 Thess. 5.9 c.f., Rev. 6. 16, 17 etc.).
There is actually no direct mention of the church, the body of Christ, in the Old Testament at all – only types and prefigurements of her; and hence in the New Testament she is called a mystery, “which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit” (Eph. 3.3-6). That’s why the way the seventy weeks and the seventieth week or last septenary of years are written up in Daniel’s prophecy without allowing for or even alluding to the “mystery” of the two millenniums of church history from the first day of Penetecost after Christ’s resurrection through to what is now the imminent resurrection or rapture of the body of Christ.
Just as there is no mention of the church, the body of Christ, by the apostle John after chapter three – chapter 4.1 alludes to the rapture – and up until chapter 21, in the biblical book of the Revelation; only mention of a righteous remnant of the tribes of Israel and those they convert, who are to be called and chosen by God to witness for Jesus instead of the church, and as quite distinct from her as a body of the redeemed, and after she has left the scene in the rapture.
Here’s a good timeline chart showing the rapture of the church in its correct perspective and chronology …
http://solascriptura-tt.org/EscatologiaEDispensacoes/BiblicalTimeline-ThomasMowery.pdf
Rapture denial is often a syndrome contracted by immature believers and by mere nominal Christians who don’t have the inspiration and insight of the Spirit of God; and who don’t have a grounding in the dispensations of God in scripture and/or are unable to “rightly divide the word of truth” (C.f., 2 Tim. 2.15). Indeed rapture denial is almost invariably and is neceassarily coupled with a denial of the dispensations of God, which flies in the face of the fact that Paul spoke as plainly of the rapture as he did of the dispensations or distinct “economies” of God that have transpired since the first man Adam was put in the garden on probation as “innocent” and with one simple commandment (Eph. 1.10; 3.2; Col. 1.25, etc.).
Rapture denial is also often conceived in the mind when some of the truth of it is known and one’s own reason for it ‘not being true’ is put into the process of understanding it – in a manner similar to the way Holocaust denial is conceived by superficial research, and by pseudo-historians who pre-suppose the official and well attested facts of the several million dead Jews to be false simply because they know some Jews and their acolytes would have had good reason to falsify them – these people are often quite earnest souls like Ernst Zundel, but they are nevertheless deceived.
At this point those who have contracted the rapture Denial Syndrome usually also look for someone to attack as a scapegoat to ‘endorse’ their supposition and/or theory that the biblical doctrine of the rapture is false – attack the person if you can’t convincingly prove his doctrine in a debate is false; and for this particular purpose they usually ‘haul out of the grave’ and into the spotlight a certain individual – who is now looking somewhat the worse for wear – by the name of Cyrus Scofield, arguing that he is the demon inventor of the “false rapture theory” and was operating with evil and ulterior design in collusion with certain finance Jews of the ilk of Jacob Schiff, the Rothschilds, and the so-called Illuminati, simply because he was one of the first Christians to include it in notes in a popular KJV Reference Bible he published.
Cyrus Ingersoll Scofield, 1843-1921, American pastor and Bible teacher
To quote one such source at http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/scofield.htm, which promotes all sorts of falsehoods and even descends to rehearsing and denouncing the circumstances of Mr. Scofield’s unfortunate marriage break-up, and doesn’t provide a scrap of proof for making the preposterous insinuation that he wasn’t even a true Christian:
“Now comes the plaintiff [Scofield's estranged wife] by her attorneys Tomlinson and Griffin and the defendant [Cyrus Scofield] enters for appearance and files answer and makes no further appearance. And thereupon this cause came on for hearing upon the pleadings and testimony and was argued by counsel upon consideration whereof the Court does find that the defendant has been guilty of wilfull abandonment of the plaintiff for more than one year prior to the commencement of this action …
Cyrus Scofield had several other incidents of a downright dishonest nature after he supposedly became saved. The fact that in 1892 he began calling himself ‘Doctor Scofield’ without producing any Doctorate degree from any Seminary or University is the least of his devious activities. Even the details he gave in his story of conversion are proven to be fabricated, including the time, place and other particularities, thereby placing doubt on the whole story.
He was a self-promoter in every sense of the word, even lying about being able to comfort and calm the entire city of Belfast, Ireland with a sermon he delivered there the Sunday after the Titanic sunk.”
Compare that with this more conventional and convincing biography at http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=71:
“Cyrus Ingersoll Scofield, 1843-1921, American pastor and Bible teacher. Cyrus Ingersoll Scofield was born near Clinton, Michigan, but his family soon moved to Tennessee, where he received his early education. While preparing to enter the University of Virginia, the Civil War broke out, and Cyrus joined the Confederate Army as a boy of 17. He was cited for bravery in the Battle of Antietam on September 17, 1862, and was awarded the Confederate Cross of Honor. When the war was over, he studied law in St. Louis, after which time he moved to Kansas, where he was admitted to the bar in 1869. He served in the Kansas State Legislature, and at the age of 29 was appointed United States District Attorney for Kansas.
In 1874 he returned to St. Louis and reentered law practice. During this time he began to drink heavily. However, this passion for drink was completely removed when he was led to a personal knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ through the efforts of Thomas S. McPheeters, a Y.M.C.A. worker. Scofield immediately became active in Christian work. During this time, he met D.L. Moody, and a friendship was formed which lasted their entire lives. Scofield was ordained in Dallas, Texas, in October, 1883, and began his ministry as a pastor of the First Congregational Church there. He published the Scofield Bible Correspondence Course in 1890, and in 1902 he began his work on the famous Scofield Reference Bible, which he presented to the public in January, 1909. He died on Sunday morning, July 24, 1921, at Douglaston, Long Island.”
Those who deny the rapture on the Net usually post a brief statement either saying it just simply isn’t true or without providing adequate corroborating evidence for their claim; or they offer a weird mix of doctrine – both biblical and mere fancy – that has never been upheld by mainstream Christian scholarship, since the days of the so-called Church Fathers.
Rapture denial is also often parroted as a sort of knee-jerk reaction by people either burned or badly singed by heresies of false cults like Seventh Day Adventism – the persistent “Skip Baker” poster over on the Russian Orthodox realjewnews.com Web site is one such individual who comes to mind.
To Quote Mr Baker:
“I’m a Protestant myself. It’s just amazing that most Protestants haven’t caught onto what is going on yet.
That’s because C. I. Scofield slipped in the Rapture Doctrine for his Jewish masters in 1909, and that was decades before the state of Israel was founded.
Because they believe the “Left Behind” lie they have fallen for the nonsense that Israel was foretold in bible prophecy.”
Indeed Mr Baker seems to have a peculiar penchant for providing corrupt views on the “seventy weeks” of years of Daniel’s Old Testament prophecy; which are largely a rehash of what Seventh Day Adventists advocate on that issue; and not a few heresies of that sort are put forward by him as propaganda on his site at http://web.me.com/skipbaker5/Welcome/Daniel.html.
Rapture denial can also be construed as a counterpart of other facts and/or sound doctrine denied today, such as Holocaust denial – i.e., that several million Jews didn’t die in WW2 Europe under the Nazis, and AIDS/HIV denial (HAD) – i.e., that testing HIV positive doesn’t cause AIDS. In fact there’s even a bunch of ’scientists’ out there who think the planet is not actually rotating, just hanging motionless in a geo-centric universe; despite the fact that you can prove it’s rotating by getting outside of it – just as you can prove the earth is not flat by looking at it from outside of it, even though it appears to be flat if you put a level on it while still on it.
Like their master Satan, the leading Jews and their Gentile acolytes in conspiracy for world control have always been aware of the doctrine of the rapture; because they’ve known it’s in the New Testament, which is the manual of Christians who directly oppose them in their war against God, Jesus Christ, and the rest of humanity. So they’ve commissioned their leading secret service agencies of MI6, the Mossad, the KGB/NKVD, and the CIA, and even their (predominantly Masonic) assets and dupes in NASA to create and/or record hoax ‘UFO’ landings, abductions, and crashes.
They’ve also commissioned Hollywood Jews of the ilk of Steven Spielberg to make “close encounter” movies, to make people think Christians have been removed by evil entities when they’re raptured shortly, or alternatively raptured by God because God wanted the Jews to be left free on earth to get on with their evil agenda of antichristian world control.
Jew Steven Spielberg receives public service award from Jew William S. Cohen, US Secretary of Defense
The leading Jews and their acolytes have also brought the masses of the goy people under the spell of scary fabulous fiction, like that by Whitley Strieber, which has marvellously served them by brainwashing millions into thinking alien abduction is so plausible that when the rapture does take place the people left behind will accept the Jew lie that it was not God but aliens taking the bad humans away so the good Jews can bring in an ideal world under Israel’s antichrist, a bit like the way they made some people think well documented 9/11 flights were ghost flights that didn’t actually take place.
Will the doctrine of the Jewish merkavah mystics provide the basis for the “dark sentences” antichrist will utter, when he stands up before the world to explain away the resurrection or rapture of the true Christians shortly …
“For this cause God shall send them [that neglect or reject the gospel and are left behind] strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess. 1-13).
21 Comments
FOR PRETRIB RAPTURE REPEATERS
Congratulations! You are now fulfilling the Bible which says “Come now, and let us repeat together.”
Be sure to repeat what Walvoord, Lindsey, LaHaye, Ice etc. repeat what their own teachers repeat what their own teachers repeat etc. etc. etc.!
Repeat that Christ’s return is imminent because we’re told to “watch” (Matt. 24, 25) for it. So is the “day of God” (II Pet. 3:12) – which you admit is at least 1000 years ahead – also imminent because we’re told to be “looking for” it?
Also repeat the pretrib myths about the “Jewish wedding stages” and “Jewish feasts” (where’s your “church/Israel dichotomy” now?) even though Christ and Paul knew nothing about a “pretrib stage” and neither did any official theological creed or organized church before 1830!
You should read “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” on the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site to find out why you shouldn’t repeat everything your pretrib teachers repeat.
Do I have to repeat this?
WARNING FROM JR TO READERS OF THIS COMMENT. THE WEB SITE “POWERED BY CHRIST MINISTRIES” ADVOCATES FALSE AND MISLEADING DATA.
Hi Jim
First up, it’s not a good thing to introduce your criticism of the biblical doctrine of the imminent rapture of the church, the body of Christ, with sarcasm, because that’s not an attribute of a godly person.
Next, there is no Bible verse that reads: “Come now, let us repeat together”. I can only assume that for some strange reason you’re providing us with a mistranslation of Isa 1.18, which says “Come now, and let us reason together” – for some strange reason because you claim to be a KJV advocate and because that verse in Isaiah has no relevance to the doctrine of the rapture or to what follows in your post.
As for your once again sarcastic charge that Christians who hold to the biblical doctrine of an imminent rapture of the church, the body of Christ, are merely repeating Walvoord, Lindsey, LaHaye, Ice, etc, who are in turn repeating their teachers etc, etc, – why is it necessarily evil or even false to repeat the teachings of others, especially if what they’re teaching is consistent with scripture?
You have also not paid close attention to how I applied Christ’s teachings in Matthew 24, because you have skimmed over my carefully chosen use of the words “alluded to”, which I deliberately put in bold type and italics, because I was almost certain some novice like you would come along and think that I had taken them out of context by applying them to a pre-tribulation rapture, when the context of Christ’s words there is clearly during the tribulation.
My careful choice of the words “alluded to” in bold and italics also dispose of your argument that I have fudged what you call my “church/Israel dichotomy” by “repeating pretrib myths about Jewish wedding stages and Jewish feasts” – obviously a snide reference to my application of Christ’s words in Matthew 24.
Concerning your claim that I have ‘admitted that the day of God is at least 1000 years ahead and also imminent because, like the rapture, we’re told to be “looking for it”‘ is not actually something you can substantiate from my post, especially if you’re trying to prove by that unsubstantiated supposition that I’ve confounded the dispensations of God and what you call my “church/Israel dichotomy”.
Having said that, I believe the word “imminent” is correct when speaking of the rapture, or Christ’s return TO THE AIR for the saints, because it means “near at hand”, “threatening”, “impending”, “looming”, and is not the same as the word “immediate”, which primarily means with “nothing between”.
The word “imminent” can therefore also be quite rightly applied to the dissolution of the heavens and the earth after the millennial reign of Christ, in the sense that “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Pet. 3.8), and because it’s something in view now, even if it is more distant (i.e., a little more than a thousand years distant) than the biblical pre-tribulation rapture.
As an aside, if you apply a literal interpretation, which is the first intrepretation of all scripture, to the above text in second Peter you will also have to concede that the biblical “day of God” is not strictly speaking initiated after the millennial reign of Christ but during Christ’s coming to earth to reign; because the apostle Peter says the heavens and the earth are dissolved in both the day of the Lord and the day of God (2 Pet. 3.10-13).
You, dear Jim, will also have to answer to God for your heretical statement that “Christ and Paul knew nothing about a pretrib stage [to Christ's return]“, because that’s a clear teaching of the apostle Paul in his epistles and is reiterated by Jesus Christ via his servant John in the biblical book of the Revelation, as outlined in my post above, and on that issue I do not here intend to repeat myself.
The so-called Church Fathers and the official theological creeds of mainstream apostate Christendom allude to and countenance but do not detail the biblical doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture or resurrection of the church, the body of Christ, simply because the understanding of the will of God has been progressive down through the dispensations of God since the fall of Adam, even though the revelation of it in writing was closed in the last decade of the first century. Once again that was something I mentioned and emphasised in my post and something you once again obviously skimmed over.
I have taken the liberty to edit your comment to protect readers from the deception you are trying to foist on them at your Web site you want them to go to, which identifies you as an insidious Judaiser (a seventh day Sabbath keeper, Hebrew Roots advocate, etc, etc), of the ilk of those condemned as the “concision” by the apostles in the New Testament.
The statement of faith on your Web site is also far too loose on the doctrine of Christ’s incarnation and is in fact heresy, even though it appears to be written by a true Christian who is relatively sincere.
Do not try to elaborate further on your heresy on this Web site, because any such comment will not be published.
… To say that someone denies the ‘rapture’ is akin to saying someone denies the ‘holocaust’… First, one must define the word in question, to provide clarity. ~~~ ~~~ What is a ‘holocaust’ ? Literally, it is a burnt offering… but the widely accepted definition associates the word with a German governmental undertaking of a planned genocide of 6 million Jews. So the truth of the ‘holocaust’ is dependant on the agreed, implied meaning of the word itself. ~~~ ~~~ For example… if by ‘rapture’, you mean a second-coming of Christ, then I too believe in rapture… however what you seem to be alluding to is that there will be a second AND – seven years later – a THIRD coming of Christ !… This is something that is not in my (Orthodox) Bible. ~~~ ~~~ Tell me… Will there be TWO last trumps ?
Hi there,
“Holocaust” is indeed from words meaning a whole burning (of a sacrifice) or in the Jews’ parlance a burnt offering or burnt sacrifice like that offered to Jehovah on the brazen altar by the priests and Levites under the old Mosaic legal dispensation in Israel.
The word “rapture” means a seizing and carrying away in transport that is extreme delight or ecstasy – like we say we’re rapt with something or someone, and like a lover is said to be “taken” by another, as caught up in what’s on their agenda to the point of blissful infatuation and as hopelessly ravished.
A word roughly equivalent to rapture in the common Greek of Christ’s day is harpazo, meaning to snatch or catch away; and as mentioned in this post it’s used to describe the miraculous transport of the evangelist Philip (Acts 8.39), the catching up of the apostle Paul to the third heaven or metaphysical celestial domain beyond the atmosphere and stellarsphere (2Cor. 12.2-4), the rapture of the church, the body of Christ, (1 Thess. 4.17), and the snatching of the man child in the book of the Revelation (Rev. 12.5).
Strictly speaking, the rapture is A coming of the Lord, because at the rapture the Lord comes MYSTERIOUSLY to THE AIR or the earth’s atmosphere to snatch the church, the body of Christ, off the planet just prior to the appearance of the antichrist and the ensuing last great social cataclysm.
Having said that, it should be obvious that the rapture or snatching away of the church to meet the Lord MYSTERIOUSLY IN THE AIR (i.e., as something only perceived by those who actually participate in it) is not THE coming of the Lord PUBLICLY or for all to see TO THE EARTH WITH THE SAINTS TO REIGN at Jerusalem.
For on the former occasion those left behind will evidently not see the saints snatched off the planet, because it’s called a “mystery” or something known only to the initiated (i.e., by new birth initiated); but on the latter occasion “every eye shall see him”(Rev. 1.7) and “his [Jehovah-Jesus'] feet shall stand upon the mount of olives, which is before Jerusalem …” (Zech. 14.3, 4; c.f., Acts 1.9-12).
You’ve asked if there will be “two last trumps”. Well a trumpet does sound at the snatching or catching away of the saints in the AIR to meet the Lord, and when the angels gather “the elect” of God subsequent to and consequent upon the return of the Lord to the earth to reign; but the “last trump” you’re evidently referring to in 1 Cor. 15.52 is the last of the trumps (arch. “sounds of a trumpet”) from the trumpet of God at the rapture and not the last sound of a trumpet at the gathering of the “elect of God” after Christ has returned to reign, because scripture says the rapture occurs about seven years prior to the return of Christ to the earth to reign.
… Ah, so you DO say that He will return twice… once and then again, seven years later – right ? But that the trump will only sound during the rapture, and NOT during the 3rd coming seven years later – right ? ~~~ ~~~ So… how is it you think that the rest of the people of the earth wont hear that trump… ? Honestly, you are really stretching it here, J.R… Are you really trying to say that there will be no trump “to herald His return to reign” ? ~~~ ~~~ ‘Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it’s light; the stars will fall from Heaven and the power of the heavens will be shaken. ~~~ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven, and then ALL the tribes of the earth will mourn, and THEY WILL SEE the Son of Man coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. ~~~ And He will send His angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.’…
… Now J.R., verses 37-41 of Matthew 24 tell how ON THAT DAY, one will be taken and the other left… * AT * the coming of the Son of Man – NOT seven years beforehand ! ~~~ ~~~ In your reply above, in your final two paragraphs, you mention what you deem to be six seperate ‘events’… will there be SIX comings of Christ ? NO ! ~~~ ~~~ All these things take place TOGETHER – at the second coming of the Lord, Jesus Christ… when He will judge the living and the dead. Let us be then ready, for Jesus said that at the end they will deliver us up to tribulation, and KILL US, and we will be hated by all nations for His Name’s sake… NOT that we would be ’secretly raptured’ ! (secret trump, is it ?) ~~~ ~~~ Best wishes in Christ to you, brother… and ALL glory to Him !
@ The Prodigal Son,
I did not deny that Christ will “come” more than once, but I did not affirm that he will strictly speaking “return” twice.
All scripture has three principle lines or aspects to its interpretation; and the coming of the Lord is no exception, because it’s first according to his incarnation as made flesh, second in the air to snatch the church, his body, bride and wife, and third to the earth with the saints in resurrection to reign.
In fact scripture makes it plain that Christ has “come” several times since his resurrection; and notably when he came to his disciples before his ascension (Jn. 20.19), and when he appeared to the apostle Paul at his conversion (Acts 9.3-9; c.f., 27.23); and what about the many other so-called theophanies since that time – do you deny these also?
How will some hear the trumpet of God at the rapture and others will not? Well I did not specifically say they would not hear the trumpet of God, but did intimate that they would at least not see the rapture for what it is; and even animals can perceive things we can’t just prior to a major event like an earthquake, and they can see things spiritual like ghosts and angels that we all can’t (c.f., Nu. 22.22-33); so what makes you think true Christians with God’s Spirit won’t alone hear the trumpet sound at the rapture when it shortly takes place?
Failing to perceive what others see or hear to their benefit, or what God is really doing at any particular time, has been a trait common to fallen man, and is certainly characteristic of those not reconciled to God, like those to be left behind at the rapture.
Also you’ll notice that while I did not deny that trumpets will sound both before and after Christ had returned, I did deny that a trumpet will sound to HERALD his return.
If there’s a verse of scripture to support your contention that a trumpet will sound to specifically HERALD Christ’s return, perhaps you could provide it for us and I will eat humble pie – “herald” in the sense of proclaiming as a forerunner.
You’ll notice that I was careful to allow that the verse in Matthew, which speaks of “a sound of a great trumpet at the gathering of the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”, is not strictly speaking a herald of Christ’s return, and that it was a harbinger of a “gathering” of the elect of God subsequent to and consequent upon Christ’s return – an event obviously distinct from the rapture that will have taken place about seven years earlier but would doubtless include those who had been raised at that time.
I do not believe the verses in Matthew you quoted are referring to the rapture of the church, as I’ve made plain on other occasions; and I’ve actually cited one of them in the last paragraph of my previous comment as an example of trumpets sounding following Christ’s return, to emphasize that contention.
Also scripture does not say “on that day” in Matthew 24. 37-41, but rather “of that day” in Matt. 24.36, and “as in the days” in Matt. 24.38.
Also Christ doesn’t judge all of the living and the dead at his return to the earth, but rather leaves a remainder of the righteous and all of the wicked dead to be judged after his millennial reign (Rev. 20.4, 5).
The ones shortly to be delivered up to be killed under the reign of the European political beast are not Christians of the church, the body of Christ, but rather the righteous of the elect of Israel, who take up with the testimony of Jesus after the rapture, and anyone from among the Gentiles they may convert during their ministry, which will last for the seven years from the rapture to the return of Christ.
J.R. … ~~~ ~~~ I’m sorry, but what you’re saying has no precedent in the first 1700 years of Christianity. I know you believe in’progressive revelation’, but to think that you know better than the Church fathers (the ones you label as ’so-called’, as if to show disdain), and even those who walked with the apostles – is unmitigated gall I.M.O. … ~~~ ~~~ I have no wish to have you “eat humble pie” or to somehow ‘win’ in my discussion w/ you, J.R…. I have only a love for the truth and my journey in pursuit of that truth, for there can be only ONE ! ~~~ ~~~ To find this one truth, you must understand that the Church is, and has always been a VISIBLE organization of people who meet in prayer, and to partake in the mysteries (eucharist, etc.). Then you must determine and locate WHICH existing Church represents … “the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (I Tim 3:15)… against which the gates of hell have not prevailed… ~~~ ~~~
… So that means that what we believe today should also be able to be reconciled with what was believed in the beginning… what is, and was always held to be the truth. Apart from the hundreds (thousands ?) of ‘denominations’ (abominations) of ‘Christianity’ (apostasy)… there is only one Church which still holds, and has always held that ONE truth as it has always been known. ~~~ ~~~ Can you find it ? I think you could, if you tried (hint : it’s not the Roman church)… Martin Luther himself believe he had FOUND the Church he had sought, which still held true to the same faith which was once delivered… but he mistakenly believed that the Church was completely defunct by that time. It wasn’t ! And indeed it still exists to this day… in fact there is now in effect a global revival of the TRUE faith that Luther himself had searched for, and IDENTIFIED – occuring as we speak… Wont you join us ?
The doctrine of the rapture of the church does have a precedent in the first 1700 years of Christianity; because it’s found in the New Testament epistles and in the biblical book of the Revelation, both of which were given by inspiration of God in the first century, and as I’ve pointed out.
The so-called Church Fathers are not final authority for the faith and practice of the church, the body of Christ. The holy scriptures given by inspiration of God and interpreted not privately but by the Holy Ghost are final authority for faith and practice.
The scriptures provide the doctrine of the rapture of the church, the body of Christ; and because the extant writings of the so-called Church Fathers don’t elaborate on it isn’t proof that it wasn’t biblical, and could mean that they (the ‘Church Fathers’) were unable to do so because spiritual decline had already set in among Christians, or simply didn’t do so because it wasn’t something they, personally, had been taught, or had, in fact, done so in writings no longer extant.
I say “so-called” Church Fathers, not to disdain their ministry, but to try to get across to blinkered souls like yourself that those men hardly represent all of the elders of Christendom around in the first four or five centuries of the Christian era capable of telling us what writers of scripture were setting forth; but rather, just a few learned men who have left to posterity some of their interpretations of and teachings from scripture for what they’re worth, and simply because they’ve alone survived, while others, doubtless often better, have, for various reasons, not done so.
Contrary to what you and your deceived co-religionists of the heretical, carnal, sectarian parties or factions in the so-called Orthodox Church would have us believe, God did not select the men known today as the so-called Church Fathers out of all those available in the first four or five centuries of the Christian era to serve Christians down through the church age as the only infallible or even leading depositaries of what is the only correct or at least reliable intepretation of scripture.
The way the various parties or factions of the so-called Orthodox Church claim exclusive rights to and venerate the so-called Church Fathers is holding men’s persons in admiration because of advantage, which is condemned in scripture as the hallmark of an apostate and an ungodly person (Jude 16).
The foregoing sin of holding the persons of the so-called Church Fathers in admiration in an exclusive way to gain an advantage goes hand in hand with that other sin in Christendom of elevating and venerating hypocritical clergymen – I say hypocritical, because their bellies are often bloated by decades of gluttony, and because they’re like the Pharisees Christ condemned, who loved to go about in long garments, loved the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats, and greetings in the markets, and to be called “rabbi” – c.f., Dr of Divinity, Reverend, Holy Father, Pope and Patriarch, etc. (c.f., Matt. 23. 1-12; Mk. 12.38, etc.).
The carnal, sectarian parties or factions in the so-called Orthodox denomination condemn themselves as at least immature in the faith and actually false from the outset, simply because they can’t agree entirely among themselves concerning the doctrine and practice for Christians. For scripture says the first churches were set up locally by the apostles without schism and sectarian divisions; having one doctrine, and one interpetation for that doctrine given by the Holy Ghost, which was largely lost to faith with the rise of Catholicism’s priestcraft during the Dark and Middle Ages, and has only been relatively recently recovered to faith, with the rise of godly men like J. N. Darby, who have restored apostolic teachings, while godly men like Luther did well, but really only reformed the heresies of the Roman and Orthodox Catholic Churches.
Contrary to what you’ve intimated, the parties or factions of the so-called Orthodox Church are not conspicuous for their similarity to the New Testament assemblies of believers as we read of them in the Acts and the epistles, but for their wilful divergence from the pattern for the churches, as given by inspiration of God in the scriptures.
Both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic Churches are from one apostate (priestly) source in the fourth century; and their history cannot be traced back beyond that point of departure from the truth, which has a counterpart in the short-comings of the church in Pergamos, as the third of the seven churches in the biblical book of the Revelation, which together set forth the seven principal eras or epochs of the history of Christendom, from its inception as a body of believers on the first day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection through to the imminent resurrection or rapture of the church, seven years before Christ returns with the saints to reign.
I’m not going to bother reiterating the many heresies of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic denominations in Christendom, as they can be found on many sites on the Web; but suffice it here to say that the leading attribute of the two is a “spirit of Jezebel” (c.f., Rev. 2.18-24), or veneration of Mary, the mother of the Lord, as a feminine deity of sorts and in the guise of a co-redemptrix and/or co-mediator with the Lord, and as one who is worshipped by adherents of those false denominations according cakes (hot crossed Easter buns, Christmas tarts, etc.), and as a counterpart of the children of Israel in apostasy, who “made cakes to the queen of heaven” (Jer. 44.17-25).
That’s all quite apart from Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic worship of idols in the form of relics and so-called icons; and subjection to various other images and false deities in the abominable pagan festivities of Easter and Christmas.
Like Roman Catholics, Orthodox Catholics hold to the anti-scriptural teaching of baptismal regeneration; and the equally abominable doctrine of the Eucharist, which insists that only by partaking of that ordinance in either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Catholic factions in Christendom is one a member of the church, the body of Christ.
To top it off, it looks like the Jews may have even been largely responsible for creating the Roman Catholic faction in Christendom in the fourth century as the mother of the so-called Orthodox Catholic Church, but I’m not going to elaborate on that here.
Oh, and by the way, the gates of hell haven’t been rushing around “prevailing against” the denominations in Christendom leaving only the Orthodox denomination undefeated and supreme in some sort of weird and wonderful way. The verse you’re quoting from Matthew refers to the fact that they didn’t prevail against the founding of the true catholic (i.e., universal) church, the body of Christ; because they didn’t keep Christ in when he, as the chief cornerstone of the ‘building’ of the body of all true believers in Jesus, rose from the paradise of hades in the nether parts of the earth on the third day.
Hi J.R., ~~~ ~~~ I’m on my way to work, so I only have a moment… but let me see if I understand your stance… ~~~ ~~~ You don’t believe in Apostolic succession, Holy Baptism, Chrismation OR in the communion of the Eucharist ?!?… That is bad news for your eternal soul ! ~~~ ~~~ Have you not been baptized ? Have you not been Chrismated ? Did not Christ Himself bequeath us to COME TOGETHER, as one and partake in the reception of His body and His blood in remembrance of Him ? These things are VERY important ! How do YOU sir, prescribe that one goes about receiving the Holy Spirit ? ~~~ ~~~ One more thing… tell me how would you venture ‘defining’ I Tim 3:15 above ? Where is “the pillar and ground of the truth” ? How does one find it ? Remember, there is only ONE truth… in a sea of a million lies. Does the Bible tell us how to find this ‘ground of truth’ where the Holy Spirit leads followers into all truth ? ~~~ ~~~ I will try to address some of your above points later… Have a good one !
You cannot prove apostolic succession according to scripture, only “the laying on of the hands of the presbytery” (1 Tim. 4.14) as a temporary and characteristically apostolic form of endorsement of eldership in the churches of the saints; and eldership is hardly the same as priesthood , even if the word priest is a contraction of the word presbytery, because scripture says all true believers in Jesus are priests, as free to offer spiritual sacrifices in the form of the fruit of their lips in their worship of God in spirit and in truth (1 Pet. 2.5, 9)).
Also possessing the attributes of an elder is not necessarily being occupied about the office of a bishop or overseer in the churches, even if all true bishops or overseers (i.e., under-shepherds) have been elders ; and hence you cannot prove the doctrine of a succession of bishops for Christendom from the aforementioned scripture that cites apostolic endorsement of eldership by the laying on of hands; and no one can prove the validity of the theory of let alone name correctly a succession of bishops from the first century through to the present day that originated with an apostle like Paul who laid his hands on a bishop like Timothy in the first century.
Indeed an apostle did not necessarily occupy the office of a bishop or overseer; and as literally a “sent one”, he was sent first to preach the gospel; and hence he was more like a so-called “missionary” than a bishop or a priest; which means the very term “apostolic succession” is misleading. Indeed apostolic succession is in fact quite without a biblical precedent, because Peter is never said to have laid his hands on anyone to endorse eldership, and Timothy was not given the gift of an apostle after Paul laid his hands on him for that reason, only the gift of a pastor as requisite to the office of a bishop or overseer.
In fact scripture makes it plain that the apostles and prophets of the church had passed off the scene permanently by the second century, and even if Christians have prophesied in a sense by using that “more sure word of prophecy” in scripture since that time. For scripture says the apostles and prophets were gifts given by God to the church way back in the foundation days, after Jesus Christ himself had been established by God as the chief cornerstone of the structure as viewed as the temple of God (Eph. 2.20).
Yes I do believe water baptism is a legitimate Christian ordinance, but only by immersion, and as quite distinct from the false rite of so-called Christening by sprinkling as practiced in apostate Christendom. A believer in Jesus would normally be baptised immediately or not long after personally receiving Christ for salvation; and always as a testimony to his or her reconciliation to God through Jesus Christ, and as an illustration of being dead, buried, and raised together with Christ to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6).
The ordinance of Chrismation or so-called confirmation in Christendom, that ostensibly confers or is at least a precursor of receiving the Holy Ghost, is quite obviously just an elaborate hoax that often makes the recipient two-fold more the child of hell he or she was before the event, in the sense that it often makes one twice as sure he or she is reconciled to God, when in fact it has had no power to confer any such thing.
Yes I do believe in the ordinance of the Lord’s supper, but I do not accept the doctrine or practice of the so-called Eucharist in the false parties or factions (denominations) in apostate Christendom; and as consistent with the way it is laid down as an ordinance for the churches of the saints in scripture, I partake of it in fellowship with other Christians who are on the same ground morally and doctrinally worldwide.
To receive the Holy Ghost you must first hear the gospel, and if you are chosen and drawn of the Father you will then be brought to repentance, which is acknowledging by your guilty conscience that you are indeed in need of salvation from sin, judgment, and damnation in hell, and that Christ died to atone for your sins and can alone reconcile you to God. As repentant you must then believe on Jesus as he’s presented to faith in scripture, and call on his name believing he is raised from the dead and at the right hand of God for you as your only mediator; at which point you will be heard by God and reconciled to him, and will receive the Holy Ghost as proof of that, and as a tangible manifestation of a (divine) person.
The “church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim. 3.15), is obviously a tangible global assembly of believers in Jesus, and would thus have local companies who contend for the same doctrine and uphold the same protocol of morality to complement the whole. This cannot be a carnal, sectarian assembly of people who are merely nominal Christians by virtue of participation in so-called Christian ordinances, or even an assembly of true believers in Jesus, if that assembly holds to or is in fellowship with other assemblies worldwide who hold to doctrine that is not the truth – truth as determined by its consistency with the doctrine of scripture interpreted not privately but by the Holy Ghost.
To find the ground of the truth, you must first be called of God to take the journey, which will try your heart for the things of God, to see how far you’re really prepared to go in obedience to him and his word. There will be trials and temptations – adversaries – in the way; but if there’s any truth in you, and if you maintain chivalrous attributes like faith, hope, charity, and have even just a little strength, you will be brought to it – a place like the Grail king’s castle the Arthurian knight was brought to when questing for the Grail.
A lot for me to respond to.. here goes !
When I said that rapture doctrine has no precedent pre- 18th century, I meant that no one had interpreted those end times the way you have… Interpretations should be cross-checked against the whole body of works INCLUDING the writings of the fathers, to make certain that those interpretations can be reconciled with what has been believed by REAL Christians everywhere, always.
If – as you say – the Church fathers are no authority to what Christians believe (or should believe),then WHO is your authority ?… Now you will answer, “scriptures and the Holy Spirit”, but what you really mean is that you are become your own authority… ’sola scriptura’ I believe you call it, right ?
Try this : ask 4 of your fellow protestants to participate in an experiment… pick one of the more obscure books of the Bible… Your assignments will be to privately read the chapter, then interpret the meaning behind it by expounding on it’s message – each of you – seperately… In the end compare your writings with each other. In the end, you will have 5 different opinions on the same subject… so which of you would be correct ? All of you ? ANY of you ? In order for the five of you to settle your dispute, WHO is your final authority ?
The Orthodox do not claim exclusive rights to the Church fathers… the fathers are however venerated, consulted and respected in order to reach consensus – to avoid wandering astray in one’s walk, and to contrast new teachings against as a measure of their veracity.
The veneration (not worship) of blessed Mother Mary, the Church fathers and all of the saints – is an acknowledgement of Christ’s triumph over death for those in His Church, and an affirmation that indeed the dead are still a part of the Church, and we shall reign TOGETHER with them at the end of this age.
Orthodox adhere to the Nicene Creed, as well as the proclamations of the first seven ecumenical councils… otherwise they are not truly Orthodox, and have endeavoured to usurp the term, ‘Orthodox’
just as the Romans have with the term ‘Catholic’.
You really need to learn about the Byzantine empire, which shone as a glorious light during the so-called dark ages… seperated from the vatican and Europe. A for the notion that the Church cannot trace it’s history before the fourth century… are you kidding ?…
The Church of Constantinople was founded by St. Andrew… the Church of Alexandria – St. Mark… the Church of Antioch – St.Paul… the Church of Jerusalem – Sts. Peter and James… and the Church of Rome by Sts. Peter and Paul.
Through the missionary work of these first Churches were founded the Churches of Sinai, Russia, Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania and successively many others…
Each of these Churches is independant in administration, but with the exception of Rome – which seperated in error from the others in the year 1054, ALL are united in faith, doctrine, Apostolic tradition, sacraments, liturgies and services. Together these Churches constitute the Orthodox Church.
Orthos = correct
Doxa = worship
I didn’t say the so-called Church Fathers denied the doctrine of the rapture (i.e., resurrection) of the church, the body of Christ, I said that they “didn’t elaborate on it”.
The so-called Church Fathers allow for the rapture or resurrection of the church, but don’t elaborate on the timing of the event, because an in depth analysis of the prophetic passages of scripture in Daniel and the Revelation was not their forte, which is one reason why the book of the Revelation has not been part of the liturgy in the Orthodox Church.
All of the interpretations of scripture are not to be found in even all of the interpretations of the Bible provided to date, because the Bible is a very profound book that no one will ever altogether fathom, apart from God; and hence an understanding of its doctrine has been progressive down through the church age – I did not say “revelation” of its doctrine has been progressive down through the church age, because that was closed by the end of the first century.
Also I did not say the so-called Church Fathers “are no authority”, I said that they were not “final authority” as to what Christian should believe.
A person who relies on the Holy Ghost to interpret scripture is not making a private interpretation of scripture; and if all Christians were filled with the Spirit of God and subject to Christ as the one head of the church, his body, they would all come up with the same interpretation of scripture when they sat down to read it, because Christ and the one Spirt of the Lord want unity among Christians so that the world will believe.
The very fact that there are parties or factions in Christendom and Christians do not agree on the interpretation of scripture proves that not all Christians are subject to (i.e., “holding”) Christ as head; and it indicates that some of them are either immature, ignorant, wilful, or not actually real Christians (i.e., as without the Holy Ghost, which is given of the Father to guide true Christians into all truth and show them things to come).
Orthodox Christians have done just exactly the thing you condemn the Protestants parties or factions in Christendom for doing – they’ve privately interpreted scripture, and have thus adopted and fostered many heresies, some of which have been cited in my previous comments and which you did not attempt to refute, no doubt because you knew you could not.
I am not a Protestant. The church dispensation began with believers in Jesus who were just called Christians; but it deteriorated into parties or factions called Roman Catholics, Orthodox Catholics (of various types), Protestants, Pentecostalists, etc, etc; and it has always included non-sectarian believers in Jesus just called or known as Christians and obedient to Christ as you very well know.
The so-called Orthodox parties or factions in apostate Christendom do claim exclusive rights to the so-called Church Fathers, in the sense that adherents of those parties or factions intimate that the so-called Church Fathers are champions of and the standard of the veracity of the so-called Orthodox Church only.
You are become wise in your own conceit by not answering the charge that adherents of the so-called Orthodox parties or factions in apostate Christendom venerate Mary, the mother of the Lord, in an unholy way, worship idols in the guise of relics, images, and icons, and celebrate the pre-Christian era pagan festivities of Easter and Christmas, which even the Jew knows are abominable to God.
I did not say Christendom cannot trace its history beyond the fourth century. I said the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic parties or factions in apostate Christendom cannot trace their history beyond the fourth century.
The so-called separation of the Roman Catholic party or faction from the so-called Orthodox parties or factions in apostate Christendom in the eleventh century, in the Great Schism, is just the so-called Orthodox Church’s way of providing a smokescreen for the fact that the Roman Catholic party or faction mothered the so-called Orthodox parties or factions at its inception in the fourth century.
All of the Orthodox parties or factions in apostate Christendom are not united in doctrine as you claim; and they witness to their division by their sectarian names, which are condemned by the apostle Paul in the first chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians as a hallmark of carnal Christianity and immaturity in the faith (1 Cor. 1. 10-17; 2.1).
… If there are points which I have not addressed – YET – it is because frankly, you tend to overwhelm your readership with a smothering of statements. Don’t get me wrong… I enjoy the discussion, and I feel it is an important one – but there is a lot for me to go over, and time is an issue for me now. ~~~ ~~~ I will say this… for the first millenium, there was only one Church… As I have said, that changed when Rome seperated from them to show that they were not of them. You are following their lead ! ~~~ ~~~ Now WHO do you think assembled the books of the Bible – into the Bible ? The Church ! The epistles of the Apostles are written and addressed TO the individual Churches, yet you deny that they existed – until Rome fostered the others in the fourth century ? How ridiculous ! ~~~ ~~~ I will reply more later, when time allows… Have a good one !
J.R., Greetings, salutations, peace to the nations…
Now, the book of Rvelation was only gradually over time accepted as inspired by God, and eventually as canonical. AS you have intimated, Revelation is the only book which is not publicly read in Orthodox services. The reson for this is partly because the WHEN of the end of this age is something NO MAN knows… we are to be ready for it – not to speculate wildly about those days. Speculation leads to divisive confusion. This was a grave problem in the 2nd and 3rd centuries (before the Church even existed, according to you), and continues to be a stumbling block for those who seek to divine the time.
Orthodox have not privately interpreted scriptures, their interpretations are those that have always been believed by all, everywhere… Initiated by the Apostles themselves, and handed down in an un-broken line through the laying-on of hands. The ORIGINAL Church is “the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth”, wherein all believers are led by the Holy Spirit (received AT Chrismation, following Baptism) into all truth. You have admitted that this must be a TANGIBLE assembly of Christians… So WHERE IS IT ?
Regarding the veneration of Mother Mary, Theotokos (God-bearer)… She was the epitome of one who was truly pure (NOT a ’spirit of Jezebel’ !!), and totally obedient to God. She was the first person to receive Christ. Mary is the first among Saints BECAUSE of her absolute obedience to God, which brought into this world our Lord and saviour Jesus the Christ.
The archangel Gabriel said to her, “Rejoice highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women.” (Lk 1:28).The mother of John the baptist, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me ?” (Lk 1:42, 43). Lastly, Mother Mary herself – by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, “For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed,”. She is honored and venerated as God intended, but of course WORSHIP is reserved for God alone !
As for Orthodox usage of icons, and your assertion that their use is idolatrous, that is simply not true ! It is not the images themselves which are prohibited in the second commandment, but rather the improper use of those images. Therefore in Exodus 20:4, the prohibition is against images – in human form, or not – which were WORSHIPPED as gods & godesses; …”gods of silver and gods of gold”… (Ex 20:23). ~~~ ~~~ Before God became incarnate, it was impossible to make an image of Him, but once God the Son assumed an actual, VISIBLE human body, it was only natural for the Church to create artistic representations of Him, His Mother Mary, and of the Saints. They have BEEN here – and we have SEEN them ! St. Luke the Evangelist made at least three icons of Christ and His Mother… and also, the heresy of iconoclasm (the rejection, or destruction of icons) was universally condemned at the 7th ecumenical council at Nicea in 787. There is to be made a distinction between worship – reserved for God – & reverence !
… Now in regards to the observance BY a Christian – of Christmas and Easter… EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE knows what these observances represent and commemorate : the birth, crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, the saviour of the world ! … There is nothing pagan in that, sir ! You are straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel that is Jewish authored propaganda against Christianity ! ~~~ ~~~ Instead swallow this sir : … “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s…” – Romans 14
Sadly you are obviously still very confused and deluded; and I’m quite sure that you’re not yet a true Christian, because you have said that the Holy Ghost is received at Chrismation, when it is in fact received as a tangible manifestation of the presence of a divine person when a true believer in Jesus repents of sin and asks the Lord into their heart.
I would suggest that you should look again at what is the gospel in the Bible, and act on it as it’s presented there for even a child to receive; and not put your trust in an interpretation of scripture that insists that you must join a particular sect or faction in Christendom like the so-called Orthodox or Roman Catholic denominations to be saved.
There are doubtless many true believers in Jesus in the so-called Orthodox and Roman Catholic factions in Christendom, but you do not get saved by merely meeting the protocol requisite to joining any particular sect or denomination; and it’s obvious that there are lots of people who have been “confirmed” ‘Orthodox’ but who were not truly born again and have in fact ended up in hell at the end of the day.
You can continue to circumvent the plain truth of the Bible by your corrupt renderings of it, but you will do so to your own destruction, and will not by that endear yourself with God who has condemned the pagan idolatry and apostasy of the so-called Orthodox factions in Christendom in no uncertain terms.
It is not only the worship of the icons, statues, pictures, and images in Christendom that is condemned by God in scripture, but also the making of them, the rearing up of them, and the naming of them.
Jehovah God commanded the Israelites to “drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down their high places” (Nu. 33.52).
If you can’t see the counterpart that has in apostate Christendom today, you’re more blind than a Jew is – icons are “pictures” and “high places” are the ostentatious Gothic arches, tall steeples, and high altars in Christendom’s churches, temples, and cathedrals – the early believers in Jesus were obviously told by the apostles to just meet in houses.
Also Jehovah God commanded: “Ye shall make you no idols nor graven images, neither rear you up a standing image [in bas relief or otherwise], neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land to bow down unto it” – and don’t try and tell me Orthodox and Roman Catholics don’t bow down to their images of Jesus, Mary, and the saints (Lev. 26.1).
Also Jehovah God commanded: “ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire, and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods [like the Reformers did to the idolatrous abominations of Rome], and destroy the NAMES of them out of that place.” (Deut. 12. 2-3).
If the making and rearing up of icons, graven images, pictures, and statues is plainly condemned by God in scripture, how much more is the naming of them?
Just how offensive to Jesus and Mary do you think it is to not only make an image of them that looks nothing like them, but to also call that fake image of them by their name? Would you do that for someone you revered or loved? Make and rear up or hang up an image or picture of them that doesn’t look anything like them, and then actually call it them? And that’s all quite apart from actually reverencing, venerating, or worshipping the thing.
Whether you call it reverence, veneration, or worship of icons, images, pictures, crosses, statues, that’s all just semantics that suits the purpose of the carnal idolator who needs something physical because he almost invariably lacks real faith and is often without the Spirit of God; and it still leaves you kneeling or bowing down before the thing, which is specifically condemned by God as I’ve pointed out.
Now J.R., there is no need to call me confused & deluded for I am neither. You question whether I am a true Christian, and your words make me want to ask the same of you ! But please, take no offense – for I have not…
RE: Chrismation… “… But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and was amazed seeing the miracles and signs which were done.”
~~~
Now according to you – Simon and the Samaritans should already have received the Holy Spirit when then believed… but read on :
~~~
“Now when the Apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. * THEN THEY LAID HANDS ON THEM, AND THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND WHEN SIMON SAW THAT THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES HANDS THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS GIVEN *, he offered them money, saying, ‘Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit…’ ” – (Acts 8:12-19)
Sounds pretty straightforward to me, but perhaps whatever Bible you have says otherwise… ? Also see Acts 19:1-7, summed up with, “… they were baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus. * AND WHEN PAUL HAD LAID HANDS ON THEM *, the Holy Spirit came upon them…”
~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Now onto your seeming fixation against Orthodox icons…
By your logic J.R., ANY and ALL artistic representations of ANYTHING would be forbidden… But in Exodus, God Himself commanded Moses to make two gold cherubim (angels) “of hammered work” for the ends of the mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant. The Lord also specified that all 10 curtains of the Tabernacle were to be woven with IMAGES of cherubim on them, and He commanded the same of the veil… (Ex. 25,26).
When King Solomon built the temple, the “sea” was set upon 12 statues of oxen… and on the 10 bases of the sea were cast/engraved lions, oxen, and cherubim… also palm trees, God Himself gave these images His blessing by filling the tabernacle with His Glory, and then saying to Solomon, “I have consecrated this house (yes, God called the temple a house…) which you have built to put My Name there forver, and my eyes and heart will be there perpetually.”
… Or what of the passages where God ordered Moses to make a bronze serpent and mount it on a staff to protect Hebrews bitten by snakes ? This is the key here, because hundreds of years later King Hezekiah “… did what was right in the sight of the Lord…” and had the serpent smashed to bits, when the Israelites began to burn incense to it… WORSHIPPING IT !
So you see, it isn’t the image itself – it is when an image is worshipped AS God – in the STEAD of the one true, triune Godhead of our Holy Bible.
To rightly interpret the word of God, one must first rightly divide it (2 Tim. 2.15 ), lest one should corrupt it by taking something dispensationally out of context, which is what factions in apostate Christendom like the so-called Orthodox Church have done with the verses in the Acts you have quoted, in order to try to substantiate the heresy of Chrismation.
The gospels provide the principles of the pattern for Christian faith and practice, the epistles are the pattern, and the Acts is a transition between the two. As a book characteristically of transition, the Acts primarily serves to show and emphasize the change of dispensations from law given by Moses to the Israelites to the Spirit of God given to both Jew and Gentile on the same ground of grace before God in the church, the body of Christ.
Hence the emphasis in the Acts is on signs and wonders and even “special miracles” wrought by the apostles to authenticate in the eyes of the Jews that change of dispensations, which the Lord knew would be a hard thing for them to concede, because they had been steeped in the law of Moses and the Levitical sacrificial system with its worldy sanctuary for around 1500 years prior to the changeover.
When the Holy Ghost was first given in the new dispensation of the church on the first day of Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection, he fell spontaneously on all of the believers in the house without waiting for the apostles to authenticate the event, because he was there given to Jews only.
On the other hand, in Acts 8, 10, and 19, apostolic authentication was graciously given by God to the other three of the four representative groups of humanity that would ultimately receive the Spirit of God on the same ground down through this dispensation of the church, the body of Christ, viz., Samaritans (Acts 8), Gentiles (Acts 10), and the disciples of John (Acts 19), so that the characteristically bigoted and racist Jew steeped in law and taught that they alone were the chosen of God would know that God was indeed doing something new.
Once the Jews had formally rejected the testimony and signs of the apostles by the end of the Acts (28.24-29), those signs were no longer dispensationally relevant and ceased with the apostles who had passed off the seen by the second century.
In other words we do not now look for the signs of an apostle and certainly not the laying on of the hands of the apostles to accompany let alone authenticate what all true Christians know is the Holy Ghost, when he is received by grace through faith.
The verses you have quoted from Acts are actually used by adherents of numerous carnal sects in Christendom, especially those of the Pentecostalist persuasion, as so-called proof texts to ostensibly authenticate what they say is a “second blessing” or something spiritual they’ve ostensibly received that other (‘inferior’) believers in Jesus don’t have or haven’t yet received “since they’ve believed”.
My logic in a previous comment does not demand that “all and any artistic representations of anything would be forbidden” – that’s just being plain stupid, stubborn, and contentious, and deliberately circumventing what I wrote that clearly bowled you out.
To descend to suggesting that I’ve necessarily brought the holy vessels and the cunning work of cherubims in the sanctuary of Solomon’s temple onto the same ground as the worship of idols in the form of icons in apostate Christendom is not just stupid, it’s preposterous and bordering on sacrilege.
As for the brazen serpent put upon a pole to look to so that someone bitten by a serpent could be healed – that is hardly the same as a carnal adherent of the Orthodox faction in apostate Christendom making, and rearing up or hanging up an icon, and naming it for either Jesus or his mother Mary.
The latter, and especially veneration of a cross and crucifix, by carnal adherents of the especially Orthodox and Roman Catholic sects or factions in Christendom does, however, have plenty of affinty with burning incense to the brazen serpent on a pole, which was quite rightly condemned as an abomination by the righteous king Hezekiah; because the brazen serpent on a pole as it was originally used to cure people was a prefigurement of Christ crucified on the cross and there made to be sin for us (2 Cor. 5. 20, 21).